I don't remember seeing anyone post this. If someone did, just ignore this.
When I noted that TC was a head coach for 20 years, I decided to see how few guys did it that long. The results (15) where interesting. For example, the sainted Bill Parcells isn't on the list. The list:
George Hallas - 40 years
Curley Lambeau - 33 years
Don Shula - 33 years
Tom Landry - 29 years
Paul Brown - 25 years
Chuck Noll - 23 years
Steve Owen - 23 years
Dan Reeves - 23 years
Chuck Knox - 22 years
Marty Schottenheimer - 21 years
Bill Belichick - 21 years
Jeff Fischer - 21 years
Weeb Ewbank - 20 years
Mike Shanahan - 20 years
Tom Coughlin - 20 years
Very impressive company. He certainly is Hall of Fame material.
BTW, not surprising he's having a hard time adjusting when you add in the three years at BC
Picking staff is part of the job of a head coach
This idea that Bill Parcells was just some kind of absentee landlord riding Bill Belichick to success remains asinine.
Eh. Coaches that walk out on teams don't deserve to be unscathed. Good coach yes, very good. But and a big but, Bill walked on us late in the offseason and left us with he who shall go nameless - big knock down IMO.
HOF certainly.
Spags circa 2007/8 is a pretty damn good hire, 2015 is yet to be determined.
Hufnagle was widely praised by Brady, didn't work out. Rectify mistake. Insert Gilbride. Success.
Sheridan, people clamored for continuity and they got it. Rumor was we missed out on Capers due to cash. I still wonder what that season would have looked like if Reese remembered safety was an important position.
Fewell, pretty much the favorite to land the job and did. Just wasn't a great fit but the defense improved en route to a SB.
Mcadoo, may end up being the best hire yet if this works out.
But at least people aren't still looking to pile on TC...
Because of those things IMO it is hard to definitely state one is the better coach than the other and why do we need to? The Giants were fortunate to have both of them and probably each one was the right coach for the given time they coached the team and I don't think it's a stretch to say that neither would have been as successful as the other if they were swapped with each others tenure.
You mean like Ray Handley?
Spags circa 2007/8 is a pretty damn good hire, 2015 is yet to be determined.
Hufnagle was widely praised by Brady, didn't work out. Rectify mistake. Insert Gilbride. Success.
Sheridan, people clamored for continuity and they got it. Rumor was we missed out on Capers due to cash. I still wonder what that season would have looked like if Reese remembered safety was an important position.
Fewell, pretty much the favorite to land the job and did. Just wasn't a great fit but the defense improved en route to a SB.
Mcadoo, may end up being the best hire yet if this works out.
But at least people aren't still looking to pile on TC...
Piling on? Come on now. This topic makes you a wee bit too sensitive.
Spags circa 2007/8 is a pretty damn good hire, 2015 is yet to be determined.
Hufnagle was widely praised by Brady, didn't work out. Rectify mistake. Insert Gilbride. Success.
Sheridan, people clamored for continuity and they got it. Rumor was we missed out on Capers due to cash. I still wonder what that season would have looked like if Reese remembered safety was an important position.
Fewell, pretty much the favorite to land the job and did. Just wasn't a great fit but the defense improved en route to a SB.
Mcadoo, may end up being the best hire yet if this works out.
But at least people aren't still looking to pile on TC...
Piling on? Seriously?
it's not. Nor is my point though. I just don't get why it's so hard to just honor the legacies rather than poke holes in them at any opportunity. That goes for people who knock down parcells to prop up TC too. Fair is fair.
Parcells coached 19 seasons, and could have coached more had he
Greg from LI : 4:13 pm : link : reply
wanted to. Unlike Coughlin, he was never fired.
Parcells coached 19 seasons, and could have coached more had he
Greg from LI : 4:13 pm : link : reply
wanted to. Unlike Coughlin, he was never fired.
I'm pretty sure Greg was responding to this in the OP
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quality staff. Coughlin has been extremely hit or miss in that department.
You mean like Ray Handley?
Ray Handley was a good position coach, but was in way over his head as a HC. George Young selected Handley as a successor. Whatever point you're trying to make is not a good one.
why do you insist on these asinine, never ending "I'm right" posts. Perkins was a great coach who turned the GIants around. Like good coaches do, he hired lots of good people like Parcells and Belichick. And both Perkins and Parcells gave their assistants room to grow. But don't ever compare TCs staff to Parcells promoting (secretly at first) Belichick to DefCo, bringing in future HCs, Al Groh, Tom Coughlin, Romeo Crennel, Charlie Weis, and though it pains me to say it, Ray Handley, highly respected long time assitants like Mike Pope, Lamar Leachman and Len Fontes that other teams actually wanted to hire. Nobody was ever banging down TCs door to hire away his assistants.
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the hatred runs deep with this one
Parcells coached 19 seasons, and could have coached more had he
Greg from LI : 4:13 pm : link : reply
wanted to. Unlike Coughlin, he was never fired.
I'm pretty sure Greg was responding to this in the OP
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When I noted that TC was a head coach for 20 years, I decided to see how few guys did it that long. The results (15) where interesting. For example, the sainted Bill Parcells isn't on the list
I agree, that's why he made this comment
"Unlike Coughlin, he was never fired."
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the guy who actually hired Belichick should get the credit.
why do you insist on these asinine, never ending "I'm right" posts. Perkins was a great coach who turned the GIants around. Like good coaches do, he hired lots of good people like Parcells and Belichick. And both Perkins and Parcells gave their assistants room to grow. But don't ever compare TCs staff to Parcells promoting (secretly at first) Belichick to DefCo, bringing in future HCs, Al Groh, Tom Coughlin, Romeo Crennel, Charlie Weis, and though it pains me to say it, Ray Handley, highly respected long time assitants like Mike Pope, Lamar Leachman and Len Fontes that other teams actually wanted to hire. Nobody was ever banging down TCs door to hire away his assistants.
Victor, sorry to ruffle your feathers. I was simply stating a fact. Parcells didn't hire his coordinators and he never won or went to a SB without Belichick.
Honestly, I'd assign a lions share of the credit for those Lombardi's to #10.
BTW, I think Parcells was a great coach. I think Coughlin was a great coach. I prefer Coughlin because of character and loyalty and he didn't start Brunner over Simms. We're all entitled to our opinions.
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In comment 12891863 David in LA said:
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quality staff. Coughlin has been extremely hit or miss in that department.
You mean like Ray Handley?
Ray Handley was a good position coach, but was in way over his head as a HC. George Young selected Handley as a successor. Whatever point you're trying to make is not a good one.
I maybe mistaken but i seem to remember he was the one Parcels championed when Little Bill would not take it
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In comment 12891894 montanagiant said:
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In comment 12891863 David in LA said:
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quality staff. Coughlin has been extremely hit or miss in that department.
You mean like Ray Handley?
Ray Handley was a good position coach, but was in way over his head as a HC. George Young selected Handley as a successor. Whatever point you're trying to make is not a good one.
I maybe mistaken but i seem to remember he was the one Parcels championed when Little Bill would not take it
not true, at least according to Parells book. He said he asked GY repeatedly if he wanted him to ask Belichick, TC and Al Groh to stick around but was rebuffed, that GY didn't think Belichick was HC material, and that GY had his mind made up on Handley.
Of course, the players get credit for Coughlin's wins and Parcells won with inferior talent, especially on defense. You can't make this stuff up.
AND protected him by keeping it secret for a year so he could grow into the job without any outside pressure.
Not sure why we need to tear down Coughlin in favor of Parcells every time a thread like this pops up. And I am not sure Coughlin had an easier go of things while leading the Giants to the same amount of super bowl wins as the Tuna.
One had the greatest living player of all time. One didn't have to deal with FA. One also had the greatest living coach and greatest living DC of all time at his disposal.
Carry on!
Parcells was a great head coach, Coughlin was a very good head coach. Not a soul from his staffs have done a thing, that says it all!
Many of Parcells coaches, whether he hired them or not, what the fuck is the difference, they learned from Parcells.
Would have they learned from Perkins, who knows, he never was any more then mediocre, he failed to distinguish himself at Alabama or anywhere else he coached after that.
He turned the franchise around? No way, he started to get it turned around, look at his record, he started to change this environment, but he did not turn it around, that was all Parcells, Perkins QUIT! We forget that?
Besides, it was Parcells defense that turned it around, he unleashed LT, he changed the way linebackers are used, PARCELLS. Now did he have the greatest tool in the game, yes, LT was the greatest defensive player to ever play the game. But just ask him about Parcells!
This crap about Parcells is just bitter fans or clueless fans that are too young to have an opinion. If you were a man back then, and a fan, you know the truth.
And you guys forget, basking in the warm glow of the Parcells era that you grew up in, that Parcells had his questionable situations. How would Parcells have survived in the ESPN, football board, open gambling era the following?
- Decision to start Brunner over Simms;
- the offensive ineptitude that knocked them out of the playoffs in 84 and 85;
- the bungling approach to the strike season putting the team in a hole and watching the Redskins (where Joe Gibbs actually took his job seriously) waltz off with the title
- the Rams playoff game debacle where he threw away (literally) a 12-4 team;
- the loss to the Jets in 1988 where they didn't show up for 3 1/2 quarters that kept the Giants out of the playoffs;
- his decision to suddenly bail on the Giants in May.
It's not that Parcells was not a great coach, but he had his problems too. And once he came back to coaching with 3 different teams in the free agency era, he didn't accomplish much and a master bridge burner.
Great coach, but an incredible pain in the ass and not above some criticism.
LOL Good call. The "sainted Bill Parcells isn't on the list" was the perfect set-up. Only other thread he appears to have posted on was - Time for Tom to move on! But everybody go flame away at each other.
I have sat a few feet from Phil Simms as he spoke for almost an hour. He didn't mention Bill Belichickm . It was literally all Parcells stories.
Here is the real truth. Bill Belichick learned everything from Bill Parcells.
Has the Apprentice surpassed the Master? Maybe.
But the idea that it was Bill Belichick behind the Giants 1984-1990 rise and not Parcells, is ridiculous
In comment 12891858 AP in Halfmoon said:
Parcells would still have been a great SB winning HC.
Belichick has essentially perfected the Parcells way.
The 1990 Giants were the forerunner to the Patriots.
If I were hiring a coach who I wanted to be part of building an organization for the next ten to fifteen years I would hire Coughlin. He would be committed for the long haul even if things didn't go well or exactly how he liked.
Two different personalities and IMO Parcells is more about himself and doesn't have the make up to be loyal to a team for an entire career, especially if he doesn't get his way. But the guy can flat out coach and push all the right buttons and I would still take him if someone said you have one shot this season to win it.
Don't agree. Look at the personnel.
Spags circa 2007/8 is a pretty damn good hire, 2015 is yet to be determined.
Hufnagle was widely praised by Brady, didn't work out. Rectify mistake. Insert Gilbride. Success.
Sheridan, people clamored for continuity and they got it. Rumor was we missed out on Capers due to cash. I still wonder what that season would have looked like if Reese remembered safety was an important position.
Fewell, pretty much the favorite to land the job and did. Just wasn't a great fit but the defense improved en route to a SB.
Mcadoo, may end up being the best hire yet if this works out.
But at least people aren't still looking to pile on TC...
Spags was forced on Coughlin much like Gilbride was forced out.
That has to color any comparison between him and T.C.
Also the fact of them coaching in different eras under much different situations.
Loved Parcells until he bailed on the Giants.
Will always love T.C. !
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Tim Lewis was hired because ernie dicked around and we missed out on Greg Williams (TC never likely allows a bounty program). Didn't work out, he recognized and brought in spags.
Spags circa 2007/8 is a pretty damn good hire, 2015 is yet to be determined.
Hufnagle was widely praised by Brady, didn't work out. Rectify mistake. Insert Gilbride. Success.
Sheridan, people clamored for continuity and they got it. Rumor was we missed out on Capers due to cash. I still wonder what that season would have looked like if Reese remembered safety was an important position.
Fewell, pretty much the favorite to land the job and did. Just wasn't a great fit but the defense improved en route to a SB.
Mcadoo, may end up being the best hire yet if this works out.
But at least people aren't still looking to pile on TC...
Spags was forced on Coughlin much like Gilbride was forced out.
STOP PILING ON WITH TRUTH AND CONTEXT!
Parcells was the better coach Coughlin might have been
The better Man !
I love Tom, but Bill was a better coach. And that's not a knock on Tom; Bill was just that good of a coach.
We can't even get rid of him
Parcells was the better coach Coughlin might have been
The better Man !
So because Coughlin Giant teams had aprox one more blowout per season than Parcells Giants teams did even though the game was played entirely different with rules that encouraged ball control and the running game to win the time of possession battle you hang your hat on that being your deciding factor?
I still think he's a fantastic coach and deserved future HoF'er. I'm sure Parcells had his flaws too.
Not good.
Just going on memory but he always came across as a me first guy. He openly flirted with trying orchestrate possibly leaving the Giants for the Falcons after the first Super Bowl. Complained and griped about not getting his way with draft picks. And when he finally did leave it was late timing with little advance notice which kind of left the Giants hanging.
That and the fact that he never really displayed any real loyalty anywhere else he went I think it is fair to say Parcells is not a real loyal ling term type of hire. But he was a great coach and none of that takes away from that. And lets face it in sports many coaches aren't always very loyal and often look out for themselves first and jump ship. It's the nature of the business and he is far from unique in that regard.
Paul Brown - 326-213, .529, 9-8 playoffs, 7 Champs
Weeb Ewbank - 130-129, .502, 4-1 playoffs, 2 Champs, 1 SB
George Halas - 497-318, .682, 6-3 playoffs, 6 Champs
Earl Lambeau - 380-226, .631, 3-2 playoffs, 6 Champs
Tom Landry - 250-162, .607, 20-16 playoffs, 2 SBs
Chuck Noll - 193-148, .566, 16-8 playoffs, 4 SBs
Steve Owen - 151-100, .602, 2-8 playoffs, 2 Champs
Don Shula - 328-156, .677, 19-17, 2 SBs
*Tom Coughlin - 170-150, .531, 12-7 playoffs, 2 SBs
Compared to these coaches already in the HOF, TC is on the lower end of winning percentage, playoff appearances, and league titles. TC's overall body of work is still a good one, but it's gonna be an uphill battle for him to make it in - especially with the way his time with the Giants ended.
Every person has their own management style. The fact that different styles succeed is a tribute to the successful manager and not a knock on other successful ones
I can't resist responding to the comments on Bill Belichick I've been around a long time and have seen a LOT of NFL football going back to Jim Lee Howell. This is not a knock on ANYONE but I don't think I've seen anyone with a better football mind than Belichick. His game plan for Super Bowl XXV is in the Hall of Fame. That speaks for itself.. Parcells also did a hell of a coaching job in XXV. (it is a team sport after all) The Bills had a much better team but the Giants have the trophy
I would not be surprised if a team took a flyer on him next offseason, if he still has his marbles.
But that doesn't mean it was not time for a change. Shula and Landry were both great coaches with much superior records to TC. But both hung around too long. Giants did Coughlin a favor by having him resign. They gave him the extra year out of respect and to see if he could right the ship. He couldn't. That Redskins game coming off the bye was all you needed to see. It was after that game I noticed a lot of Coughlin supporters coming to terms with the fact that Tom was going to be let go.
Yes, it was a brilliant and genuis way to go about it.
But the Giants offense had the ball for 41 minutes by design.
Every play was called to use as much clock as possible.
The key stretch of the game, from the end of 2nd to start of 3rd saw the Giants O on the field forever and Buffalo didn't get the ball for an hour!
Te Giants D didn't see the field for an hour!
They went from losing in mid 2nd to winning in late 3rd, without ever taking the field.
It was Parcells plan that won XXV. It was to keep the Bills off the field. They actually had the ball 19 minutes and scored 19 pts.
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Supe 42 and 46 runs for a good amount of credit.
Of course, the players get credit for Coughlin's wins and Parcells won with inferior talent, especially on defense. You can't make this stuff up.
I meant in addition to Eli.
And yes, Parcells was/is a major pain in the ass and diva. ANd yes, the Brunner decision was a fiasco (one that Perkins was contemplating too had he stayed on), but it doesn't change the fact the he was the best coach in Giants history. His wanderlust hurt him in the end.
I think, what Coughlin has going against him, is, the fact, in 12 seasons, he basically was a 9-7 coach....he only had 4 seasons above 9-7.....he only had two seasons out of twelve, where his teams won a playoff game.....and the last 4 seasons, where his team did not make the playoffs, the last 3 seasons were a disaster.....
I think Tom coughlin was a good coach......but HOF is no slam dunk....
Then you have things like injuries and a few weird plays that also effects the outcome of the games.
The only real tangible measurement of a coach is by the players he coaches and I'm not talking about how well they play. I'm talking about how much respect they have for the coach and how hard they will play for them. You can't measure that by game results either.
TC is by far one of the best coaches this league will ever see!
Very well said..thank you